Answering Poosh
This post is in response to the comments left by Poosh to this post.
I'll admit that I've not seen the video, so I'm at a disadvantage. However, if the worst you can come up with a soldier dressed in a Catholic school girl outfit, I'd be willing to venture a guess that there are a lot of former POW's who would trade a month in a Catholic school girl outfit for fifteen minutes of what they endured; what you've described is nothing compared to the humiliation felt by those POW's who were captured by the Vietnamese, or the Japanese, or the Iraqis, or pretty much anyone else Western powers have fought in the last century. I'm not condoning what happened, but I have a hard time condemning it, particularly for elite groups like the Royal Marines.
Are you an expert on the training that the Ministry of Defense provides their personnel? I know a bit about what the Department of Defense here in the States does, and I know that not everyone goes to it; primarily pilots and unconventional warfare operators. I'm under the impression that the American military does a better job of preparing its personnel through the sheer attitude difference. So, it's possible that we're talking past each other, but I'm under the impression that my knowledge of the situation is more extensive than your own (considering that my minor, in which I took almost as many courses as in my major, was Naval Science with a focus on the Marine Corps).
If a recruit kills themself over bullying, then they're not emotionally stable to the degree that they ought to be serving in the military in the first place. Is it tragic? Of course; but it would be more tragic if they did it on the battle field.
What do you expect them to say when someone sticks a microphone in their face? "I don't see this as a problem, these boys are receiving the best training we can give." Of course not. Americans don't want to hear about their troops being "abused" or "bullied", and Europeans want to hear about it even less; Europeans are completely ignorant when it comes to what actually goes into winning wars and making outstanding warriors. I don't think you can disagree when I say that Europe doesn't have the stomach for this sort of thing; so generals, who are politicians as much as anything else, should be expected to offer strong words against it when the opportunity arises.
Maybe. We still know what happens to Western prisoners of war when Arab armies get a hold of them. Debunked or not, Andy McNab's busted teeth and permanent nerve damage have to lend some credibility to his story; and the treatment Americans received at the hands of the Vietnamese is well documented and verified.
I've seen nothing to suggest this. Groups like the Royal Marines or the SAS are obviously comparable to American groups like the Navy SEAL teams, Army Rangers and Green Berets, Marine Corps Force Recon, et cetera. However, I've seen no indication that the average British grunt is somehow superior to the average American grunt.
Like I said, I'm not condoning this kind of thing, particularly for your average grunt. These weren't average grunts, they were Royal Marines. And even if you did have average grunts being "bullied", it would probably make them more effective in combat because it would give them tangible ideas of just what they had to worry about.
And you know what? The Russians made a good fighting force in a lot of cases. The NATO powers had no interest in fighting the Russian army during the Cold War, and even the Royal Marines could probably find better things to do than to pick a fight with the Spetsnaz.
I'm not saying that this is necessarily appropriate training, and it most likely wasn't intended in the way that I'm explaining it; I can admit that. However, one should be expecting rough treatment upon entry into the military of any country. This isn't Cub Scout camp. Should it have happened in this way? Probably not. Is it the issue that people are trying to make it? I really don't think so. If you want to disagree, go right ahead.
As a point, the footage looks to be like a pub-crawl that went wrong. NOTE THE SOLDIER DRESSED AS A CATHOLIC SCHOOL GIRL.
I'll admit that I've not seen the video, so I'm at a disadvantage. However, if the worst you can come up with a soldier dressed in a Catholic school girl outfit, I'd be willing to venture a guess that there are a lot of former POW's who would trade a month in a Catholic school girl outfit for fifteen minutes of what they endured; what you've described is nothing compared to the humiliation felt by those POW's who were captured by the Vietnamese, or the Japanese, or the Iraqis, or pretty much anyone else Western powers have fought in the last century. I'm not condoning what happened, but I have a hard time condemning it, particularly for elite groups like the Royal Marines.
Our troops are trained plenty to deal with capture so you cut that crap - they get PLENTY of preparation.
Are you an expert on the training that the Ministry of Defense provides their personnel? I know a bit about what the Department of Defense here in the States does, and I know that not everyone goes to it; primarily pilots and unconventional warfare operators. I'm under the impression that the American military does a better job of preparing its personnel through the sheer attitude difference. So, it's possible that we're talking past each other, but I'm under the impression that my knowledge of the situation is more extensive than your own (considering that my minor, in which I took almost as many courses as in my major, was Naval Science with a focus on the Marine Corps).
It's NOT that simple. IF there was bullying this is a fucking outrage, it might have escaped your attention that in recent times there have been cases of several recruits and soldiers KILLING THEMSELVES because of bullying.
If a recruit kills themself over bullying, then they're not emotionally stable to the degree that they ought to be serving in the military in the first place. Is it tragic? Of course; but it would be more tragic if they did it on the battle field.
And there have been British commanders who have recently voiced how apparently disgusting this is, men who I can only presume know a wee bit more than you given they've lead men into battle personally in some cases and planned operations AND seen them through.
What do you expect them to say when someone sticks a microphone in their face? "I don't see this as a problem, these boys are receiving the best training we can give." Of course not. Americans don't want to hear about their troops being "abused" or "bullied", and Europeans want to hear about it even less; Europeans are completely ignorant when it comes to what actually goes into winning wars and making outstanding warriors. I don't think you can disagree when I say that Europe doesn't have the stomach for this sort of thing; so generals, who are politicians as much as anything else, should be expected to offer strong words against it when the opportunity arises.
And as for Bravo Two Zero, I'm sorry to say because it's a great story, has been subject to a great deal of debunking. And it hurts me more than you to admit that, believe me.
Maybe. We still know what happens to Western prisoners of war when Arab armies get a hold of them. Debunked or not, Andy McNab's busted teeth and permanent nerve damage have to lend some credibility to his story; and the treatment Americans received at the hands of the Vietnamese is well documented and verified.
These men know perfectly what they're up against - remember the British army is probably in terms of skill superior to the US army (though that's of little help given our lack of weapons, armour, boots et al) when it comes down to the skill level of the average grunt vs your average grunt.
I've seen nothing to suggest this. Groups like the Royal Marines or the SAS are obviously comparable to American groups like the Navy SEAL teams, Army Rangers and Green Berets, Marine Corps Force Recon, et cetera. However, I've seen no indication that the average British grunt is somehow superior to the average American grunt.
To suggest that being forced to duel with eachother BY MEN DRESSED IN FANCY DRESS is absurd, sorry.
Like I said, I'm not condoning this kind of thing, particularly for your average grunt. These weren't average grunts, they were Royal Marines. And even if you did have average grunts being "bullied", it would probably make them more effective in combat because it would give them tangible ideas of just what they had to worry about.
This is IF ANYTHING more akin to the sick bullshit seen in the Russian army.
And you know what? The Russians made a good fighting force in a lot of cases. The NATO powers had no interest in fighting the Russian army during the Cold War, and even the Royal Marines could probably find better things to do than to pick a fight with the Spetsnaz.
I'm not saying that this is necessarily appropriate training, and it most likely wasn't intended in the way that I'm explaining it; I can admit that. However, one should be expecting rough treatment upon entry into the military of any country. This isn't Cub Scout camp. Should it have happened in this way? Probably not. Is it the issue that people are trying to make it? I really don't think so. If you want to disagree, go right ahead.
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