A Response to Angie
What better way to procrastinate on a year-plus overdue paper than by responding to a dissenting comment? "Angie" writes in the comments to Never Forget:
Angie, you are completely and unequivocally wrong. Usama bin Laden is the son of one of the richest men in Saudi Arabia, and enjoyed all of the benefits life could offer him, including education. His second-in-command, Ayman al-Zwahiri, is a doctor. Yasser Arafat was well educated, getting his start as an "activist" on his college campus; many of the leaders of the "Palestine" Liberation Organization are well-to-do "Palestinian" academics. Many of the terrorist leaders, and many of their followers, are well educated people with money, just like most of the lunatic protestors and eco-terrorists we see in the United States and Europe aren't poor, uneducated working class guys. In Europe, America, and the Middle East, the problem isn't poor, uneducated people: it's trust fund terrorists, like the lunatics who torch SUV dealerships or break into laboratories to release animals.
If education is the answer, then why are so many of the terrorists already well-educated, and not just in the madrassa schools? If poverty is a risk factor, then why aren't any of the terrorists we're fighting from sub-Saharan Africa? As I said, there is no negotiating with these people. There is no convincing them not to hate us. They will hate us until we submit and surrender our culture and our values to them. They hate us for the very values and freedoms that we cherish most: freedom, democracy, pluralistic government. I'm not willing to give that up so that some trust fund terrorist will hate me a little less. I won't submit to the will of someone who is so savage that they would advocate the slaughter of innocent schoolchildren in Israel.
Do you value education? The terrorists don't; they value everyone doing what their extremist imams say. They value a strict Islamist education in madrassas. Don't believe me? Try Googling the name "Mullah Mohammed Omar" and reading his biography; he was the leader of Afghanistan before Operation Enduring Freedom.
You compare terrorism to poverty, apparently ignoring the fact that people choose terrorism; no one chooses poverty. Poverty is caused either by poor economic conditions (mostly caused by government corruption or fallacious economic policies) or poor financial planning. The comparison doesn't hold up.
And for what it's worth, the Afghan people are learning to respect and value American influence in their country. The Kurds in Iraq have been adamantly pro-American for years. The Shi'is in Iraq were pro-American before Gulf War I, and they're growing increasingly pro-American again; the only reason they stopped being staunchly pro-American in the first place was that the tenor of global politics made it impossible for America to continue its support for a popular revolution in Iraq after the conclusion of Gulf War I.
I am not discounting the role of diplomacy; not by any means. As a matter of fact, my family is living proof that relations between two countries, even countries that don't typically get along (most notably America and France) can be improved through something I'll call "tourist diplomacy" for lack of a better phrase. I think this, and things like economic and political aid to developing countries, can be instrumental as an investment in tomorrow's positive international relations.
Unfortunately, there will always be people who hate America due to its power and influence, and any number of other factors. There are many causes of this hatred, none of them are particularly rational, and none of them are that they "don't even know that their government is terrible"; trust me, if a high school student can figure out that his state legislators are a bunch of idiots with no integrity and no ideas of how to improve the state, then there's no reason to make excuses for poor villagers whose governments kidnap, conscript, or kill them. If there's one thing that you can't bank on, it's the stupidity of the average joe; they will give you a run for your money every single time.
There will always be people who hate America, and to be honest with you, that's okay. If people hate America, they can stay in their own countries, or go wherever they think is a good place to live. However, there are people who will always hate America, and who are violent to the degree that they will attempt to attack America; they hate America to the degree that they will never, ever be convinced otherwise. The only solution is to eliminate these people before they can harm American citizens, including citizens like Joanne Ahladiotis.
Oh, and for what it's worth, the complaints in the media of rampant anti-Americanism abroad is a lot of hogwash. The Iranian people love us. The Turks love us (I've never met a single Turk who wasn't pro-American). Most Europeans aren't big fans of the Bush Administration, but they have no beef with Americans. I also refuse to base my foreign policy on what a bunch of self-absorbed Frenchmen think of me; I'm glad that President Bush doesn't, either. Foreign policy is not a popularity contest, and "understanding why they hate us" won't accomplish anything; we already know why barbarian terrorists hate us, and we're unwilling to make the changes necessary to make them like us. Foreign policy is not a popularity contest, with the nicest country winning a pretty sash and a plastic crown.
As anachronism points out in a recent post over at the Veritas Forum, Machiavelli pointed out that for a major power, stability comes more from the fear of your competitors than their love. Western Civilization will never be universally loved; it will never, ever, ever happen. As long as we demand freedom, as long as we demand a government that is not ruled over by priests, as long as we demand freedom of speech, a right to keep and bear arms, a irght to fair and public trials, a right to avoid cruel and unusual punishment, there will be ideologues, hatemongers, barbarians, savages, and brutes who hate us and want to see our destruction. There are two outcomes: they can win, forcing us to surrender the values and freedoms we hold the most dear; or we can win, and retain those values and freedoms.
Angie, for what it's worth, I think it's excellent that you're so open to discussing and learning more about these issues. A lot of the people I know absolutely don't care, and I make it a point of associating with people who do; for example, many of the people who post here. I would highly encourage you to read this site continually. I'll also recommend a few others: Free Will Blog and The Jawa Report (which, by the way has an excellent explanation of the current state of international relations, broken down into Star Wars terms). You can also get real information about Iraq, from real Iraqis who support the Americans and cherish freedom, by reading Iraq the Model. You can find objective, legitimate information about military operations around the world and throughout history by reading Global Security liberally.
I would highly advise you to stay away from sites like Not the Country Club. I can tell you for a fact that "Al S.E." doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, and you should be suspicious of anyone who deletes dissenting comments. I've had two comments deleted from the same post in less than twenty-four hours over there because "Al S.E." is unwilling to stand up to criticism. I have never deleted a comment from Thus Saith the Fly, and I don't plan to. Anyone who is so academically dishonest that they delete dissenting comments isn't worth listening to. I can also tell you for a fact that "Al S.E." doesn't acknowledge his own bias, he's never served in the military, and he has no concept of the reality of international relations. His solution is to blame America first for all of the world's problems, and anyone who jumps straight to blaming America and denouncing President Bush isn't worth listening to.
Stick around, and for the first couple or three weeks, just read. Take in what I have to say, and process it for a while before commenting on it. If you have questions, by all means, post them; if I don't answer them myself, you can believe that Billy D, Harley, the Mad Alchemist, Poosh, or King Sipidation will jump in and add their input.
Be aware.
I agree with you that these acts of brutalism has to be stopped, but I also believe that killing them is giving them more reason to fight, most of them don't even know that their government is terrible, that's why they fight.
I agree, they are terrorist barbarians, but I still think the solution doesn't lie in killing them all, EDUCATION is our strongest weapon against terrorism.
It's like saying that you could end poverty by killing all the poor- OK, that's farfetched, I know you don't mean that because poor people don't necessarilly have to be criminals, but that's where it all originates, lack of education and poverty.
That may drive men, women and children to kill, to let someone else who offers them more than the life they have brainwash them into commiting such acts, that extremist, and all extremes are bad.
The solution has to be more than killing, the solution lies in not making them hate you back more.
I don't have a solution, I don't.
But I won't forget, I can't forget the face of Joanne, or this post, for that matter.
It's good, really good.
Angie, you are completely and unequivocally wrong. Usama bin Laden is the son of one of the richest men in Saudi Arabia, and enjoyed all of the benefits life could offer him, including education. His second-in-command, Ayman al-Zwahiri, is a doctor. Yasser Arafat was well educated, getting his start as an "activist" on his college campus; many of the leaders of the "Palestine" Liberation Organization are well-to-do "Palestinian" academics. Many of the terrorist leaders, and many of their followers, are well educated people with money, just like most of the lunatic protestors and eco-terrorists we see in the United States and Europe aren't poor, uneducated working class guys. In Europe, America, and the Middle East, the problem isn't poor, uneducated people: it's trust fund terrorists, like the lunatics who torch SUV dealerships or break into laboratories to release animals.
If education is the answer, then why are so many of the terrorists already well-educated, and not just in the madrassa schools? If poverty is a risk factor, then why aren't any of the terrorists we're fighting from sub-Saharan Africa? As I said, there is no negotiating with these people. There is no convincing them not to hate us. They will hate us until we submit and surrender our culture and our values to them. They hate us for the very values and freedoms that we cherish most: freedom, democracy, pluralistic government. I'm not willing to give that up so that some trust fund terrorist will hate me a little less. I won't submit to the will of someone who is so savage that they would advocate the slaughter of innocent schoolchildren in Israel.
Do you value education? The terrorists don't; they value everyone doing what their extremist imams say. They value a strict Islamist education in madrassas. Don't believe me? Try Googling the name "Mullah Mohammed Omar" and reading his biography; he was the leader of Afghanistan before Operation Enduring Freedom.
You compare terrorism to poverty, apparently ignoring the fact that people choose terrorism; no one chooses poverty. Poverty is caused either by poor economic conditions (mostly caused by government corruption or fallacious economic policies) or poor financial planning. The comparison doesn't hold up.
And for what it's worth, the Afghan people are learning to respect and value American influence in their country. The Kurds in Iraq have been adamantly pro-American for years. The Shi'is in Iraq were pro-American before Gulf War I, and they're growing increasingly pro-American again; the only reason they stopped being staunchly pro-American in the first place was that the tenor of global politics made it impossible for America to continue its support for a popular revolution in Iraq after the conclusion of Gulf War I.
I am not discounting the role of diplomacy; not by any means. As a matter of fact, my family is living proof that relations between two countries, even countries that don't typically get along (most notably America and France) can be improved through something I'll call "tourist diplomacy" for lack of a better phrase. I think this, and things like economic and political aid to developing countries, can be instrumental as an investment in tomorrow's positive international relations.
Unfortunately, there will always be people who hate America due to its power and influence, and any number of other factors. There are many causes of this hatred, none of them are particularly rational, and none of them are that they "don't even know that their government is terrible"; trust me, if a high school student can figure out that his state legislators are a bunch of idiots with no integrity and no ideas of how to improve the state, then there's no reason to make excuses for poor villagers whose governments kidnap, conscript, or kill them. If there's one thing that you can't bank on, it's the stupidity of the average joe; they will give you a run for your money every single time.
There will always be people who hate America, and to be honest with you, that's okay. If people hate America, they can stay in their own countries, or go wherever they think is a good place to live. However, there are people who will always hate America, and who are violent to the degree that they will attempt to attack America; they hate America to the degree that they will never, ever be convinced otherwise. The only solution is to eliminate these people before they can harm American citizens, including citizens like Joanne Ahladiotis.
Oh, and for what it's worth, the complaints in the media of rampant anti-Americanism abroad is a lot of hogwash. The Iranian people love us. The Turks love us (I've never met a single Turk who wasn't pro-American). Most Europeans aren't big fans of the Bush Administration, but they have no beef with Americans. I also refuse to base my foreign policy on what a bunch of self-absorbed Frenchmen think of me; I'm glad that President Bush doesn't, either. Foreign policy is not a popularity contest, and "understanding why they hate us" won't accomplish anything; we already know why barbarian terrorists hate us, and we're unwilling to make the changes necessary to make them like us. Foreign policy is not a popularity contest, with the nicest country winning a pretty sash and a plastic crown.
As anachronism points out in a recent post over at the Veritas Forum, Machiavelli pointed out that for a major power, stability comes more from the fear of your competitors than their love. Western Civilization will never be universally loved; it will never, ever, ever happen. As long as we demand freedom, as long as we demand a government that is not ruled over by priests, as long as we demand freedom of speech, a right to keep and bear arms, a irght to fair and public trials, a right to avoid cruel and unusual punishment, there will be ideologues, hatemongers, barbarians, savages, and brutes who hate us and want to see our destruction. There are two outcomes: they can win, forcing us to surrender the values and freedoms we hold the most dear; or we can win, and retain those values and freedoms.
Angie, for what it's worth, I think it's excellent that you're so open to discussing and learning more about these issues. A lot of the people I know absolutely don't care, and I make it a point of associating with people who do; for example, many of the people who post here. I would highly encourage you to read this site continually. I'll also recommend a few others: Free Will Blog and The Jawa Report (which, by the way has an excellent explanation of the current state of international relations, broken down into Star Wars terms). You can also get real information about Iraq, from real Iraqis who support the Americans and cherish freedom, by reading Iraq the Model. You can find objective, legitimate information about military operations around the world and throughout history by reading Global Security liberally.
I would highly advise you to stay away from sites like Not the Country Club. I can tell you for a fact that "Al S.E." doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, and you should be suspicious of anyone who deletes dissenting comments. I've had two comments deleted from the same post in less than twenty-four hours over there because "Al S.E." is unwilling to stand up to criticism. I have never deleted a comment from Thus Saith the Fly, and I don't plan to. Anyone who is so academically dishonest that they delete dissenting comments isn't worth listening to. I can also tell you for a fact that "Al S.E." doesn't acknowledge his own bias, he's never served in the military, and he has no concept of the reality of international relations. His solution is to blame America first for all of the world's problems, and anyone who jumps straight to blaming America and denouncing President Bush isn't worth listening to.
Stick around, and for the first couple or three weeks, just read. Take in what I have to say, and process it for a while before commenting on it. If you have questions, by all means, post them; if I don't answer them myself, you can believe that Billy D, Harley, the Mad Alchemist, Poosh, or King Sipidation will jump in and add their input.
Be aware.
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